Coming of Jesus With All His Saints

By Oscene Barrett/Jesus Son (04/2010)

The text in 1Thessalonians 3:13 has been wrestled by many to their own destruction. Pre-tribers see in this most beautiful text an alleged proof for their Pre-tribulation rapture. Many pre-trib books have extensive referred to this text as their scriptural proof that Jesus will return at the start of the Great Tribulation for a Pre-tribulation resurrection and rapture. This is said to be true because the text say He is coming back with all his saints. The word "Back" is not in the text, but its addition is not a perversion since Jesus is in fact coming back after he came as a savior the first time. So they claim that Jesus must come "FOR" His saints in order to come back "WITH" them. Now, with this "Come for in order to come back with" argument assumed to be correct, they went on to add more stuff to the scripture by saying that this "coming for the saints" occurs at the beginning of the Tribulation; hence, Pre-trib. Is this rightly dividing the word? What does the text says? Here is the text:

11Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you. 12And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: 13To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in Holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. (1Thess 3:11-13)

According to 1Thessalonians 3:13; Jesus is coming back with ALL his saints, that is, when he returns ALL (not some of) His saints will be with Him. That's all the text says on Jesus' return with saints. It did not say that Jesus came FOR them before, at the start or during the Tribulation. This might be claimed, but it is not in the text. Is the Pre-tribers idea that Jesus is coming back for some of His saints at the Pre-trib rapture incorrect because it is not in the 1Thessalonians 3:13 text? No, but it would be incorrect if we cannot find scriptures to prove: (1) a Pre-trib coming; and (2) At this Pre-trib coming there will be a rapture. To say or imply that Jesus can only come back with all his saints IF he had come for them before is fallacious and a poor use of grammar. The Rule of Grammar is very important in scriptural interpretation. It is one of the rules of Apostolic Hermeneutics. Below we will be discussing various views and their accuracy from a scriptural point of view.

The coming in 1Thess 3:13 is believed by Pre-tribers to be a Post-trib event, thus, Jesus' coming with all his saints is AFTER the Tribulation as can be seen in Chart 1 (3). They claim that if Jesus comes with all his saints, he MUST have come for them before. With this assumption accepted as truth, they assign the "coming before" as Pre-trib; thus, they have inserted a coming of Jesus BETWEEN Jesus' 1st and 2nd advent, which they claim is exactly 7 years before his 2nd advent. Dispensationalists believe that the Great Tribulation (which will culminate at the 2nd coming of Jesus Messieh) will last for 7 years. These 7 years is said to be Daniel's 70th week (since the 70 weeks prophecy timeline is day=year interpreted), which is said to be equivalent in type to Jacob's Trouble as can be seen in the Chart 1. At the alleged Pre-trib coming is where the rapture will take place according to Pre-tribers, that is, Jesus will come for His saints, meet them in the air and return with them to heaven. As a result the coming in 1Thessalonians 4:14-18 is assigned as Pre-trib by ALL Pre-tribers. The problem with Pre-tribers and their interpretation is the lack of scriptural support for a Pre-trib coming. A Pre-trib coming is simple not in the scriptures anywhere.

Pre-tribers rather than admit that their "inserted" Pre-trib coming is not scriptural, but esoteric and false have proceeded to add more confusion to issue by now claiming that the 2nd coming of Jesus is split into two phases: the 1st Phase being the "inserted" Pre-trib coming and the 2nd Phase is the Post-trib second coming. Everyone can see that Pre-tribers are just playing games here: why not just say the Pre-trib coming is the 2nd and the Post-trib coming is the 3rd. They know very well that to do this will expose their doctrine for what it really is: a false doctrine. Jesus comes first as a Savior, Messieh the Lord is irrefutable and there are plenty scriptures to support a SINGLE Post-trib 2nd coming of Jesus (Matt 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 2Thess. 2:1-8). However, there are absolutely no scriptures to support an "inserted" Pre-trib coming of Jesus. Pre-tribers know this, so in order to deceive gullible souls into believing that their false doctrine is truth, they do the Trinitarian dance: they just claim a single 2nd Coming (which is scriptural), but they split it into two phases (which is NOT scriptural). How clever!!! Trinitarian claim ONE GOD (which is scriptural), but they split Him into Three Gods (which is NOT scriptural), namely God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. It is the same dance apostolic Pre-tribers are doing like the Trinitarians. Pre-trib and Dispensationalism was invented by Trinitarians to support Trinitarianism; it was never an apostolic invention. Apostolic just copy it as they do many other evils. Just like Trinitarians lies are exposed, Pre-tribers errors are equally exposed.

Recall, Jesus came as a savior, Messieh the Lord and went back to heaven. Then He returns for his saints at the Pre-trib rapture and take them to heaven with Him for 7 years to return with them after the Tribulation as per Pre-tribers interpretation. This cannot be two comings, but three. It does not matter if they call the "second" coming the 1st Phase of a 2 part 2nd coming and the "third" coming the 2nd Phase of the 2nd coming; it is still at least three comings any how you cut it. But where are the scriptural supports for this?

To even insinuate that their "inserted" coming was a "Secret-Mystery", that is, it was not revealed to the Apostles or the Prophets, but to some unsaved guys in the late 18 century to early 19 century barks hard at the very Word of God. The apostolic interpretation of the word "Mystery" means a revealed truth, that is, something that was hidden in time past, but is now made known, manifest, or reveal (Col 1:26-27; Rom 11:24-25; 16:25-26). The apostles did not interpret the word "Mystery" to mean a secret that is only revealed to a select group (initiates of a secret order or society), but was revealed so all and sundry could hear and understand. Pre-tribers claim that their inserted Pre-trib coming of Jesus Messieh is a "Mystery" because of lack of scriptural support. This is akin to Trinitarians who claim that Trinity Godhead is a "mystery" because they cannot prove three Gods with only the scriptures. Pre-tribers are now teaching that their "inserted" Pre-trib coming is a "Mystery-Secret" because ONLY the saints would see Jesus at this time. They make a big deal out of the "Thief in night" metaphor and saints meeting Jesus in the air. They infer that Jesus will meet His saints in the AIR and make a U-turn to heaven WITH them. By "Air" they mean somewhere in the sky that is not visible to Humans on earth, somewhere outer space. This "outer space" interpretation is not in the Bible anywhere, but is imported into the Text by Pre-tribers (See 1Thess 4:17-18). Acts 1:9-11 made it very clear that the people on Mt Olivet who witnessed Jesus going back to heaven, saw him in the air (sky) that is, they were looking at Him going up until the cloud (they saw this cloud) received Him out of their sight. So in the air he was visible to persons on the ground. Elijeh also being taking to heaven is another example, where Elisha could see him in the air going up until he was no longer visible (2Kings 2:9-13). In Jamaica I have seen airplanes, helicopters, and birds all flying in the open heaven. All of these flying are not on the ground, but in the air; however, they are all visible. The helicopter and the airplanes because of their excessive sound cause many persons who were lease concern to pay attention. What is the point Brother Oscene Barrett? Jesus meeting the saints in the air can very well take place in the open heaven where everything is visible from earth. As a result there is no need to make this meeting in the air an outer space event in order to claim that this coming for the saints is not the 2nd coming, but the "secret" Pre-trib one. The next part of the problem is who made a U-turn; Jesus or the Saints? See Chart 3 below and the discussion that follows.

Another Pre-trib dilemma is their compilation of ALL the saints that will be coming WITH Jesus at His Post-trib return. According to 1Thessalonians 3:13 Jesus will return WITH ALL His saints, which mean that there will be NO other saints who are not a part of this group; thus, both OLD and NEW Testament saints should be included and will return with Him. The question that Pre-tribers must answer is HOW is this group compiled or HOW many raptures are required to assembly such a group? Now recall that Pre-tribers believe that Jesus CANNOT COME WITH UNLESS HE CAME FOR. This interpretation implies that ALL the saints MUST be gathered in Heaven BEFORE Jesus can return WITH them. But Pre-tribers have Jesus coming for His Church at the Pre-trib rapture; this they say must happen for the Anti-Messieh to be revealed. The Holy Ghost in the Church is postulated by Pre-tribers to be the Restrainer, who restrains the Anti-Messieh, so in order for the Anti-Messieh to be revealed the Holy Ghost in the Church (which is in the members) must be taken out. Pre-tribers are convinced that the Church MUST be raptured at the Pre-trib coming, but by "Church" here I am not sure if they have OLD and New Testament saints as part of this group. Pre-tribers have recorded in many places that ONLY the New Testament saints are raptured at the Pre-trib rapture. Their views, however, on whether Old Testament saints are raptured together with the New Testament saints vary from Pre-triber to Pre-triber. However, based on their Holy Ghost in the Church - Restrainer doctrine I refuse to think that the Old Testament saints are a part of their Pre-trib rapture, but I will let them answer these questions though.

· Do the Pre-trib raptured saints consist of both OLD and New Testament saints?

· If no, why not?

· What is destiny of the Old Testament saints?

Pre-tribers teach that after the rapture the Anti-Messieh will make war with saints (Rev 13:7). These saints are believe to be natural Jews (bloodline Jews), religious Jews (mixture of bloodline Jews with Jewish proselytes), or mixture of religious Jews and Gentiles (Gentiles are believe to be martyrs who would be beheaded), but regardless of the composition of these Tribulation saints, they still need to get to heaven BEFORE Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation. The question to Pre-tribers is how do they get there? I have read many of their writings, but I have not come across an answer to this question. There are many things I can deduce from their writing that may be used to answer the question, but I think they should answer the question above. To side step this question by claiming that ALL the saints in 1Thessalonians 3:13 means ALL New Testament saints is making the Text say what it is not anointed to say. Here is what I think is real reason why Pre-trbers are avoiding this question. Pre-tribers believe that the saints cannot get to heaven unless Jesus comes for them, so Pre-tribers need to say how many times Jesus will come for His Tribulation saints. As a result, we can easily see that there is AT LEAST 4 comings of Jesus taught by Pre-tribers if they are honest and consistent; 3 of which are shown on Chart 1 (see numbers 1-3 on chart), but the forth must be inserted between coming 2 and 3 on chart. This new one is when Jesus would come for His Tribulation saints. I have never read this anywhere before. This is new, God showed me as I sit to write this Paper.

Now, many Pre-tribers claim that ALL the saints Jesus will returns with are New Testament saints raptured at the Pre-trib rapture, but why? What will become of the Old Testament saints and the Tribulation saints? Are they not a part of the Kingdom? If they are not a part of the kingdom; why? And, if they are, should not they be in the same company, carrying the same blessed hope of the glorious appearing of our Great God and Savior Jesus Messieh? The text says Jesus is coming with ALL HIS saints (They are all Jesus' saints, right), so the question that Pre-tribers must answer is, are the Old Testament and the Tribulation saints Jesus' saints? I know what the Trinitarians will say, but what will those who professed to be oneness apostolic say here. I have realized that many professing Apostolic are convenient oneness. Now, Jesus told unbelieving Jews that they will see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Kingdom and they themselves trust out (Text here). It is that same Kingdom that both Jews and Gentiles needed to be born again to enter into (John 3:1-8; Acts 2:38-39; Gal 5:1-7; 6:15; Eph 3:6). Now, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were NOT Jewish, neither were they Israelites, so to make ALL the Old Testament saints Jewish and then link them up with the Tribulation saints who many Pre-tribers believe will be all Jewish in order to give them a separate destiny from the New Testament saints is false and wrong. The scriptures sighted above are enough to prove that the born again believers will be in the same kingdom with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the rest of believing Israel. Paul said both Jew and Gentile should be of the "SAME BODY", which is the church of the living God (Eph 3:1-7).

Chart 2: Destiny of the Church and Israel according to Pre-tribers

Now, if there is one God of both Testaments, why is there a need for the separation of the saints? The Jews, Trinitarains, and Twinitarains know that there is one God. Apostolic are absolutely sure there is but one God, so someone need to tell us why should the New Testaments saints be separated from the Old Testament and Tribulation saints if they have the same God? This bigamist idea that oneness dispensationalists are spreading must be stopped. God has ONE WIFE, the Church, which consist of both Jews and Gentiles. God will not have the church saints in the New Jerusalem and the Old Testament and tribulation saints in heaven with Him moving between these two eternally separated groups. This is exactly like a married man with a sweat heart, but God is not a careless God. He is a holy God.

On the other hand, the apostolic interpretation of the coming of Jesus with all His saints is consistent with Apostolic Hermeneutics principles (Chart 3). It based its entire conclusion upon the undiluted word of God, with no help from the Jewish Gnostics, which we now know as Kabbalahistic Jews. Chart 3 illustrates clearly that there is only two comings of Jesus Christ on the pages of the scriptures. We know He came first to be the Savior of world, born to the virgin Mary, in Bethlehem of Judea. He came according to the Daniel 70 week's prophetic timeline (Dan 9:24-27): is it any wonder why Paul said he came when the "Fullness of time was come" (Gal 4:5-8). So Jesus came from heaven and was on this earth in the form of flesh for approximately 33 ½ years before returning to heaven about 10 days before Pentecost (30A.D.), which was 40 days after he was resurrected.

Daniel 70 weeks prophecy sets the time lime for the Messieh coming to bring in everlasting righteousness. Daniel 70 weeks prophecy has being extensively discussed by this author and many others. However, it is sufficient to say that it commences in 7th year of Artaxerxes (Ezra 7:1-27), which based upon historical sources date this in 457 B.C. The 69th week would ends 27 A.D., the same year Jesus was baptized of John to commence his public ministry. Note: according to Luke Jesus was baptized in the 15 year of Tiberius Caesar (Luke 3:1, 23), which based upon historical sources date this in the year 27A.D. In the middle of the 70th week Jesus was kill and by his death he brought to an end the oblation and [animal] sacrifices (Dan 9:27; Heb 10:1-4). The 70th week finished in 34 A.D. same time as the Samaria revival with Philip, the evangelist. There is no postponing the 70th week and then making it into the great Tribulation. All of it is fulfilled and pass and no part of it future.

Next, we will have Jesus' Second Advent after the Tribulation as He has said. Firstly, the duration of the Tribulation is 3 ½ years, not 7 years as per dispensational teaching. Secondly, Jesus will not come for his saints at the Pre-trib, Mid-trib, or Pre-wrath rapture in order to return with them at His Post-trib coming. This is nowhere expressed or implied in the scriptures. It is true that He will return with ALL His saints as is recorded in 1Thessalonians 3:13, but this does not demand that He came for them FIRST at one of the dispensational raptures. The bible said He descends from heaven, that is, Jesus is coming down and while He is descending or coming down the saints will meet Him in the air; and He will continue descending to earth WITH the saints (after all He is coming down). The saints who "MEET" Him will immediately turn upon meeting Him and together (He is WITH them here) they will come to earth.

So, how do the saints end up with the Lord in order to return WITH Him? Answer, they "MEET" Him in the air. No need for multiple raptures or other dispensationalist confusion here.

The raptured saints meet the Lord in the air on His way down to earth (See Chart 3). You cannot read a U-turn of Jesus into 1Thessalonians 4 Text. It is not there. It clearly said that Jesus is coming down and on His way down to earth the saints meet Him in the air and return to earth with Him. This is how the word "Meet" in the Greek and in our English vocabulary is used: it is the "one" doing the "meeting" that makes the U-turn and not the "one" been "met". This can be clearly seen on Chart 3. This is the truth.

Jesus Son

Epilogue

The definition given for Saints in 1Thessalonians 3:13 is people who have been saved. This was so because most Pre-tribers believe they are actual people, so by using their definition I show that their interpretation given to the text was wrong. The word saints from its Greek route word here (Hagios) means holy ones and refer to angels. A number of texts both Old and New Testament include a company of angels with Jesus at his return. So the word saint in 1Thessalonians 3:13 is widely accepted among scholars to be angels and not people.

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At last, a writer who can keep it right and present the Truth in a manner that even a way-faring man or a fool cannot err therein. I am very happy to recommend Minister Oscene Barrett's excellent studies.

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